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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: The Paleolithic Diet Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/roberthodgen/paleo.htm

Quote:

What is the Paleolithic Diet?

For most of the million or so years our species has existed on Earth, we have been hunter-gatherers. Our ancestors hunted game and ate lots of meat. They also gathered whatever fruits, vegetables, nuts, and berries were in season. Being nomadic, they followed the sources of food and did not grow crops. Over many hundreds of thousands of years our ancestors became superbly adapted to this diet and lifestyle.

Studies of 19th and 20th century hunter-gatherers show that they ate a lot of meat. On average, two thirds of their calories came from animal sources. Our early ancestors probably ate at least as much meat. They produced many cave paintings and pictographs of the animals they hunted and carved animal figures or totems. I can't remember seeing any cave paintings of fruit, grains, or vegetables. Among the oldest man made objects are stone spear points knives and axes. The evidence shows that they followed the herds and their lives revolved around hunting.

The agricultural lifestyle came along about ten thousand years ago and spread around the world. In terms of genetics and our body's ability to adapt to dietary change, this is a very short time. The archeological record shows that there was a sharp decline in stature and health that went along with the change to the agricultrual diet and lifestyle. Early hunter-gatherers were 4 to 6 inches taller than early farmers. The hunters had stronger bones, fewer cavities, and, barring accident, they lived longer. Hunter-gatherers were rarely obese and had low rates of autoimmune diseases like arthritis and diabetes.

In spite of overall poorer health the farmers took over the world. How did this happen? Hunter-gatherers have children, on average, only every 3 to 4 years, while farmers have theirs every 11 months. Hunting and gathering only works for small groups of people. Chiefdoms, kingdoms, and states only arose after the advent of farming. A few people could produce food for many. Those freed up from the day to day search for food could become artisans, soldiers, and bureaucrats. A thousand soldiers supported by ten thousand slaves toiling in the fields became the new super weapon. These guys could whip any band of hunter gatherers! The old time hunter-gatherers were simply out-organized and out-bred. As more and more land was converted into crops, the animals and those who still followed them were driven off and marginalized. By the 19th and 20th centuries we could only find hunter-gatherers in the deserts, jungles, and remote places like the arctic.

[...]

The Diet:

The rules of the Paleolithic Diet are simple: Only eat what was available to the early hunter-gatherers. Foods which are edible raw. All other foods should be avoided. In effect this is the factory specified diet.

Do Eat: Meats and Fish, Fruits, Vegetables, Nuts, and Berries.

Do Not Eat: Grains, Beans, Potatoes, Dairy, Sugar.


On this diet you don't count calories or carbs. You eat when you're hungry and stop when you're full. I snack all the time on nuts and fruit. Any food of any kind from the "Do Eat" list is OK. All foods from the "Do Not Eat" category are strictly forbidden--no exceptions! It takes some will power at first, but after a week or two the cravings for the old foods go away.


Hunter Gatherer = Natural Grunger with NO SCALP CRUST... Very Happy
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SCALP CRUST

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low carb diet -- some anecdotal reports claim that maintaining a low carb diet may improve SD[sebderm-SCALP CRUST] by stabilizing blood sugar levels, hormones, and enzymes, etc. The end result is claimed to be better overall health , better immune function, down-regulation of inflammatory processes, etc..
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Combin' the Barbarian
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Wonders have actually never ceased? Reply with quote

My apologies for assuming this info is for my benefit. But I am. And it is a sound bit of info at that. This was the first really helpful thing I learned from this site. I was of course going on and on about my crust when Widow's and Bonds sort of simultaniously said it could be a yeast overgrowth in my system, this was way back when I was about 3 months grunge. I went into intense study mode and found it had merit and changed my diet straight away. The candida diet is almost exactly like a low carb diet, and dropping sugar is required for the first three months. Even fruits. Here is what I settled on as for a menu and a plan:

http://www.wholeapproach.com/diet/foodlists.html

I did this religiously and decided to stay on it indefinately, with compromises only if I went to England (Fish and Chips) or on a cruise, with intent to re-detox upon return home. I documented all of this in posts here way way back. In the end I lost 30 pounds, actually detoxed (it was wild!) gained a whole lot more energy and finally worked the bugs out of my already monk like diet. It did have an impact on my crust in that it made it esier to remove, but it did nothing for how quickly it returned or built up. I completed the 3 month detox about 8 months ago, so maybe I have to wait longer to see a real impact on my crust? I wonder if this is the reason that red wine vinegar is working for me better than johnnyJ at his last assessment, hopefully he is fairing better at this time. I await his update.

Quitting sugar completely (except for what natually occurs in veggies and fruits) was easy using this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevia

It does require getting used to, but I could make you a sugar free and actually good for you cinnamin apple cake with icing that would satisfy your sweet tooth.

And I encourage everyone to evaluate the possibilty of yeast in their systems. It is a gift you give yourself.

Since this appears to the "civil" post, I will address what you mentioned concerning non SLS shampoo and me still being a grunger in that other thread.

I would tend to agree with you on one hand simply because of how very little I use it. One thing I like about grunge is it instantly made my hair shafts seem thicker because of the natural oils involved. I liked the effect of course and because of how little nonSLS I use I still enjoy this perk. But I wouldn't consider myself a grunger because my hair would be drastically different if I stopped what little nonSLS I do use.

Interesting update (for me anyways) is that since I have been using red wine vinegar, I have been able to further reduce how much nonSLS I am using, and go a day in between without using even water. This is quite a triumph for my hair that never adjusted at all during grunge. But the bad news is I have been trying to see how long I can go without even water and the results were mixed. My hair didn't seem to mind, but my shedding increased. It wasn't much but it did happen and I am a firm believer that an increase in shedding is bad and watching for it has allowed me to keep my hair going into my 40's.

Here is something maybe you could help me with because all joking aside, you are the link master here. In my posts concerning my shedding during grunge, I stated that during this time I was on the candida diet and I wondered if losing 30 lbs in 3 months could have been part of the reason I shed so much. As fas as nutritional intake, I was very careful to choose foods to balance out and because I was being introduced to new foods (like quinoa), my nutritional intake was actually better off, but still I wonder.

I have been toying with the idea of going back to baking soda instead of nonSLS shampoo (as per one of the no shampoo forums that I linked to here recently) now that I have something I can rely on to remove crust. I am going to do this when I feel I have recovered sufficiently from my grunge shed so I have enough to lose a little if need be, then I would consider my self at least shampoo free if not grunge.

Thoughts?
ni77y
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Combin' the Barbarian
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: oh yes and... Reply with quote

I forgot to mention, as in your copy and paste above, sugar is an immune system enemy and since I have dropped it, I have been without even a sniffle.
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Wonders have actually never ceased? Reply with quote

ni77y wrote:

In my posts concerning my shedding during grunge, I stated that during this time I was on the candida diet and I wondered if losing 30 lbs in 3 months could have been part of the reason I shed so much.


DIET

Quote:

Changes in diet can sometimes lead to hair loss

[...]

The little-talked-about secret of the dieting industry is that a successful diet can also trigger hair loss. As Americans struggle with obesity and tackle countless fad diets, some dermatologists say they are increasingly hearing complaints from perplexed dieters about thinning hair.

[...]

Hair loss can be triggered by a variety of factors including pregnancy, stress, surgery and age-related hormonal changes, to name a few. But few people realize that weight loss can also cause hair to shed, likely due to a nutritional deficiency. Although iron deficiency is often associated with diet-related hair loss, a range of nutrient deficiencies can result in thinning hair, dermatologists say. Changes in levels of zinc, magnesium, protein, essential fatty acids and vitamins D, B and A can all trigger episodes of shedding hair. The problem affects both men and women, but women are more likely to notice it and seek treatment, say doctors.

The fact that so many different nutrients can be the culprit in hair loss means any diet can take a toll on the tresses.

The threat of thinning hair shouldn't discourage patients from losing weight, but it should convince them to avoid fad, quick-reduction diets, says Wilma Bergfeld, head of clinical research for the department of dermatology at the Cleveland Clinic. Such diets often lack proper nutrition, and rapid weight loss in itself is a stress on the body and can also trigger metabolism changes that affect hair growth.

For hair health, doctors say the best weight-loss plans are reduced-calorie diets that promote gradual weight loss with healthful foods from all of the food groups. Diets low in protein and iron, such as vegetarian diets and very-low-fat diets, often result in deficiencies. But high-protein diets like Atkins that initially discourage fruits and vegetables can also trigger hair loss, says Dr. Bergfeld. The typical patient complains of thinning hair after losing about 20 pounds in a relatively short period of time, she says.


The Paleolithic Diet

Quote:

Paleolithic (Hunter-Gatherer)
This is one of the more fascinating of the diet plans to come forth in recent years. And yet, it is based on some of our most ancient, evolutionary eating patterns—the “caveman” or “caveperson” diet. (This is not to be confused with the dinosaur era, which was some 70 million years ago.) Actually, these people belonged to nomadic tribes and mainly used caves for winter shelter.

This hunter-gatherer diet of the Paleolithic humans, our ancestors who inhabited Earth some 40,000 years ago, has been carried on in many tribal cultures. NowaDay s, however, it is essentially an extinct species of humankind that continues to hunt wild game and gather their foods such as fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds as available on a seasonal basis.

Recent archeological findings suggest that these ancient ancestors of ours were a healthy bunch—tall, strong bones, and body structures like modern-Day athletes—they appear to be most similar to ours in regard to stature, and as long as they survived accidents, infections, and childbirth, their longevity was similar to ours, but with much less chronic degenerative disease. Further anthropological studies suggest some of the food and life habits of these early human beings. They had regular vigorous exercise applied to hunting and gathering their food for survival. Flesh foods provided their proteins; seeds and nuts their oils; fruits and berries were available for quick energy; and some starchy vegetable tubers provided more complex carbohydrate fuel.

The theory behind the health benefits of this hunter-gatherer diet, called the “Paleolithic Prescription” in the book of the same name by Dr. S. Boyd Eaton, Dr. Melvin Konner, and Marjorie Shostak, is that our modern diet should be adapted more to that of our ancestors than to the current one commonly consumed. The grains, eggs, and dairy foods, though wholesome in many ways, are the most common allergenic ones, and create both evident and hidden problems in many people. A big reason for much of the chronic disease in our culture involves the large amounts of fats, especially saturated fats, which were nearly nonexistent in ancient times (free-running animals had a much lower fat level, and most of the fats were of the polyunsaturated variety). The high intake of refined foods and grains in general also may be problematic in modern humans. The Paleolithic Prescription suggests an avoidance of refined foods and recommends that the main animal foods be closer to the wild game of ancient times. It includes fish and free-range poultry, obviously with low chemical application to the raising, cultivating, and preparation of these foods.

The average tribe’s food consisted of about one-third hunted food to two-thirds gathered, so it was a primarily vegetarian diet that varied seasonally and had added high-protein, low-fat meats based on hunting success. The Paleolithic diet was estimated to be roughly 60 percent carbohydrate, 20 percent protein, and 20 percent fats with a calcium intake often over 1000 mg. daily, and that is without milk products. As compared to the modern diet, the hunter-gatherer diet, as outlined in The Well Adult by Nancy Samuels and Mike Samuels, M.D., consisted of:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Half the fat Twice the calcium
Two to three times the protein One-sixth the salt
Low grain consumption Two to three times the potassium
No refined sugar Four times the vitamin C
No refined flour Twice the fiber
No or low alcohol Higher B vitamins
No tobacco Higher minerals






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Besides the various wild game available at that time, the majority of the food consumed consisted of the following uncultivated vegetable foods:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


fruits nuts leaves
berries seeds stalks
melons beans bulbs
flowers tubers fungi
roots gums




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For most tribes, 10–20 common foods made up the diet staples with possibly up to 50 other foods eaten less frequently. Herbs were also used, more as medicinals, often with different parts of the same plant gathered or used at different times of the year.

Interestingly, the evolution of our current diet began with the Neolithic revolution some 10,000 years ago. In the following 2,000 years, the population became more settled and began to increase rapidly. Organized agriculture began then, along with the increase in whole grain foods, especially wheat. Animals were domesticated and sheep, goats, pigs, and cattle provided various meats and milks that have been used throughout the centuries. Chickens and their eggs were also eaten. These new and richer, fattier foods are thought to be at the source of many of our chronic degenera-tive diseases. The whole grain foods are also the more common allergenic foods, as are cow’s milk and chicken eggs. This suggests that evolutionarywise, many of us have not even yet adapted to these foods genetically. The Industrial Revolution is only 200 years old and added another dimension to our new modern diet—that of refined foods and the use of chemicals in our foods. This is a big problem which we will discuss in greater detail next in the Industrialized Diet as well as later in Chapter 11.

In Paleolithic Prescription, the authors suggest that “modern disease is a result of a mismatch of our genetic makeup and our lifestyle.” Dr. Eaton calls our twentieth century diseases “afflictions of affluence” or “diseases of civilization.” These include atherosclerosis, hypertension and heart disease, heart attacks and strokes, adult-onset diabetes and cancer.

Following a hunter-gatherer diet is not an easy task in this Day and age. Grains, both whole and refined, and milk products are readily available, and the two very common foods, wheat and cow’s milk get into a great variety of foods found in our commercial stores. The wild game and uncultivated vegetable foods are not found in our supermarkets. Meats are domesticated and high in fats and potential chemicals. Most all grains and vegetables are cultivated and sprayed with pesticides and other chemicals. More organic foods and meats with lower concentrations of chemicals are available but these are not always easy to find, and they are still not as clean as foods were in regard to chemicals and heavy metals of the preindustrial cuisine. So, it is a chore to adapt our diet and eat in a way that’s close to our Paleolithic, Stone-Age, Cro-Magnon ancestors.

Some suggestions for eating this more natural diet will blend together Paleolithic nutrition with some more modern foods. This will clearly reduce fat intake and reduce the incidences of many of our “diseases of civilization.” We should bake, roast, and steam our foods instead of frying or sautéing them. Eating more raw, organic foods is helpful. We need to reduce the fatty meats and all processed meats as well as most of the whole milk products. We can eat a good breakfast of whole grain, fruit and juice, or skim milk. Lunch is a good meal that we prepare and eat at home or carry to work or school. It may include a protein like fish or poultry with vegetables or a sandwich and soup. Dinner is a lighter meal of raw salad and soup. Late eating is minimal and our main beverage is water. Many of these suggestions will be incorporated into my Ideal Diet of Part Three.

Exercise is as key an issue for good health as is diet. Our Paleolithic brethren had a good level of physical activity incorporated into their daily lives. If we are tilling, planting, growing, and harvesting our own foods full time, we all experience that similar benefit, especially if we did a little distance running as the ancient hunters did. Construction workers probably have that level of physical labor though they are possibly not as aerobically active and are exposed to more pollution in regard to noise, dust, and chemicals.

Most of us need to develop and maintain a lifelong exercise plan that will blend with our more sedentary work lifestyles. This should include a natural seasonal variance that ideally coincides with the cycles of light and darkness in our area. Our activity should be outdoors and energy expending during the warmer, lighter months; energy-gathering exercise, such as yoga, done indoors is best in the colder, darker times. Our exercise program should provide a balance that leads us to our optimum weight, good strength, and adequate endurance—and should be an integral part of our life—as it was with most of our ancestors.


The Paleolithic diet probably did not cause excess hair shedding Very Happy
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The_Ruffneck
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a hunter gatherer , my domain is the local supermarket
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Ruffneck wrote:
I'm a hunter gatherer , my domain is the local supermarket


HAIR LOSS AND INSULIN

Quote:

Exciting new research shows that high blood levels of insulin and its growth factors may cause male pattern baldness in which men and women lose hair from the top and front of their heads, while hair on the sides of their scalp continue to grow luxuriously. A study from Harvard School of Public Health shows that men who have the highest blood levels of insulin like growth factor-1 are the ones most likely to suffer male pattern baldness. Women who have high levels of insulin (polycystic ovary syndrome) are the ones most likely to lose hair from the tops of their heads. It still is early in the research, but evidence is accumulating that male-pattern baldness may be caused by high levels of insulin that are produced by eating huge amounts of sugary and floured foods such as bakery products and pastas. We need research to show if male pattern baldness can be prevented by avoiding flour and sugar, eating fruits only with meals and taking drugs such as Glucophage, Actos and Avandia that lower insulin levels.

Signorello LB et al. Hormones and hair patterning in men: A role for insulin-like growth factor-1. Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology February, 1999;40:200-203.


Dropping the "sugar habit" like a hot potato. No more starchy refined sugars for me Wink

Dairy is not good either it seems. Glad to have been a non-milk drinker for the past few years. Soy and beta-sis also appear to be ...not good.

Supplementing with omega 3s to balance out the intake of omega 6s due to predominantly grain fed animals.

Of course we must worry about mercury in fish and "mad cow disease" from beef. Crying or Very sad
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://paleodiet.com/
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The_Ruffneck
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oscar i have thought for many years that the highest incidence of MPB i have seen through TV and photos etc is Italians.

They do eat alot of pastas etc but pasta is made with white flour , alot of wholegrain "brown" bread has a low glycemix index when compared to white breads so brown breads are acceptable and only white is bad correct?
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Ruffneck wrote:
oscar i have thought for many years that the highest incidence of MPB i have seen through TV and photos etc is Italians.

They do eat alot of pastas etc but pasta is made with white flour , alot of wholegrain "brown" bread has a low glycemix index when compared to white breads so brown breads are acceptable and only white is bad correct?


I really don't know the answer to that question but I think you are correct about the refined flour:

No. 1 Food That Leads to Big Bellies

Quote:

People who eat too much white bread have larger waistlines than their friends who eat whole grains instead, according to a new study from Tufts University in Boston.

That plushy white bread goes straight to your gut and then hangs out as belly fat, reports The Associated Press. In fact, white bread is a larger contributor to a bulging waistline than alcohol, sweets, or meat and potatoes.

"Waist circumference was very much associated with this high-refined-grains pattern," lead study author Katherine Tucker, an associate professor of nutritional epidemiology at Tufts, told AP.
Tucker's team examined 459 healthy, middle-age people in Baltimore, Maryland who had a variety of eating habits. Specifically, they examined five different diets where one type of food was prominent: healthy food, white bread, alcohol, sweets, or meat and potatoes. And the people who ate the most white bread were also the fattest.

The Tufts researchers found that calories from refined grains settle at the waistline, which translates into a half-inch a year for people who just had to have their white bread. At the end of the study, those who indulged in white bread had three times the gain in the gut as did their peers who ate whole grains.

This is serious stuff. People who have bigger waists have a higher risk of heart disease than those who weigh the same but don't carry the extra weight around the belly.

The study findings were published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.


Brown bread does not appear to be part of the paleolithic diet though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet

Quote:

Foods in the diet
Foods which are included in the diet are ones that can be obtained by using paleolithic tools and practices, like meat (preferably game, though many followers of the diet eat farmed meat for practical reasons), fish, and gathered or foraged fruits, leaves, and roots of plants, mushrooms, nuts, eggs, and honey.

Some practitioners allow the use of oils derived those foods which can be obtained and produced through paleolithic means and are edible in their natural, uncooked state. Examples could include sesame oil and safflower oil, but not olive oil or oils derived from beans (for example, peanut oil) or grains (for example, corn oil). Others avoid the use of any oil, as it is a processed food.

The non-animal foods available in the diet are the same as those available in raw veganism. However, there are two fundamental differences between raw veganism and the paleolithic diet: Firstly, practitioners consume meat and other animal products (in fact usually more is consumed than on a standard modern diet, in some cases substantially more). Secondly, any and all food may be cooked if desired.


Foods not in the diet

Vegetable foods which are not edible raw and unprocessed are excluded from the diet. The foods falling into this category are mainly grains (wheat, corn, rice, etc.), starchy vegetables (i.e., beans, and potatoes), certain fruits and nuts (e.g. olives and cashews), and refined sugars. Alcoholic beverages are generally excluded because fermentation is also a form of processing, although some paleolithic eaters allow certain exceptions (i.e., wine, since fermented (over-ripe) fruit can be found and consumed in small quantities with little ill effect). Dairy products are excluded despite being edible raw, since they cannot be found or consumed easily in nature, at least in any considerable quantity, and are consequently a post-agricultural food.


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Combin' the Barbarian
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:41 am    Post subject: he is shmall Reply with quote

The short answer concerning grains is to avoid the ones that break down into sugar after ingestion. They are also the lowest in minerals and amino acids so your doing yourself a double favour by avoiding them.

The grains I use are quinoa, kamut, brown rice flour (for pastries, cakes and cookies) and a little spelt. You can make a great tasting bread out of kamut or spelt and any other all purpose baking (like salmon patties or breading for fish and chicken) with the exception of sweets, since I am only using stevia as a sweetener I have to use brown rice flour for this type of baking, stevia takes some getting used to. Man, I'm getting hungry.
ni77y
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oscar the grunge
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syndrome X

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The Prediabetic Epidemic

Syndrome X is a relatively new diagnosis, but it is a condition as old as the typical American diet.

Jack Chellem, Nutrition Science News, March 2001

The person with a "fat tire" carries an unmistakable clue to his health right around the waist: He either has or is at serious risk of developing Syndrome X. The condition isn't a household word quite yet, but it's getting there. An estimated 60 to 70 million Americans-about one of every four people-have some degree of Syndrome X, which sets the stage for adult-onset diabetes and coronary artery disease.

The good news is that, like many other health problems, Syndrome X can be prevented and reversed through a combination of diet, supplementation, and moderate physical activity.

The term Syndrome X was coined in 1988 by a Stanford University endocrinologist, although the cluster of signs and symptoms that distinguish it had previously been referred to as metabolic syndrome or insulin-resistance syndrome. Originally, Syndrome X was defined by four characteristics: (1) abdominal obesity, (2) elevated levels of triglycerides and low levels of high-density lipoproteins (HDL, or the "good" cholesterol), (3) hypertension, and (4) insulin resistance. Insulin resistance, the hallmark of adult-onset diabetes, also lies at the core of Syndrome X. This hormone imbalance alters blood-fat ratios, raises blood pressure, and increases fat storage.

In the past 13 years, several other signs and symptoms have been associated with Syndrome X: low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol oxidized by free radicals, low levels of antioxidant vitamins, elevated C-reactive protein (C-RP, a marker of inflammation),1 low dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels, high cortisol levels, and sometimes androgen-dependent baldness.2 The current definition of Syndrome X is used flexibly in that some experts refer to a combination of just two or more of the characteristics as Syndrome X.

By itself, each characteristic of Syndrome X increases the risk of diabetes and coronary artery disease. A combination of characteristics, such as abdominal obesity and hypertension, further increases the risk of these conditions. Furthermore, diabetics carry an increased risk of cardiovascular disease.3



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Widowswannabe
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long live the Paleo-diet!
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Grainy Day, Dream Away Reply with quote

Alot has changed since I typed this here. Now I use grains very sparingly and only brown rice and quinoa, probably a total of 1/2 cup a week combined and I consider it a special treat. Other than that I'll go to an Indian resteraunt once a month and eat their rice.

The rest of my diet is totally raw foods.
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The_Ruffneck
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rice is plain
what sauces/herbs/spices do you use to add some flavour to this bland dish?
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