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guitarius
On A Mission


Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both genetics and evolution are blindly BLINDLY accepted as the truth about the world
around us. Anyone who is not blinded by religion just accepts them as absolute fact. I
myself believe something.... and its not genetics, evolution or religion, but I believe
somethings out there, something on the spiritual side that maybe even lent a hand in
our creation.

Really think about evolution for a sec...the theory is that through random mutations and
reproduction of that mutation, we went from tree dwellinig apes, to what we are today,
and in about 4.5 million years, and the biggest leap was in the past 2 million years
when we went a still very very monkey-like creature to a super intelligent, walking,
talking, thinking, reasoning creature so different from any other creature that ties are
only vaguely visible. And this all happend because one monkey was born a mutant with
a human characteristic, lets say he had a hairless body, he fucked SOOO many girl
monkeys cuz they kinda liked the hairless bod dealio. He fucked so many and
reproduced so many other hairless monkeys that they were everywhere and kept
mulitiplying till the hairy ones stopped getting laid and the hairless ones were all that
were left. Next one random hairless one is born a mutant with hair that can grow two
feet long like a humans, the female monkeys dig the fabio look and only friggin him. And
so on and so, thousands of random mutations and then the girl monkeys only friggin the
mutants and wipe out the normal monkeys. And all this happend in million years. I'm
sorry this idea is very stupid. That would mean that there are thousands upon
thousands of skeletal remains of monkeys BETWEEN us and "our ancestors" that are a
little bit different everytime. It's just to much to happen over a short time period.

Now for genetics: apparently genetics determine EVERYTHING, that is the new view that
is being widely widely accepted. EVERYTHING, our thoughts, our capacity to love, the
shape of our cock....so on. Think about that, so every thought we have is genetically
created, we are just machines acting on instict mixed with the genetically genereated
things called reason and emotion. Genes determine cell by cell the shape of our
penises, our noses everything. Cell by cell, the building blocks of life work cell by
cell.........hmm i think there would have to be alot more than there actually are (genes).
And as for the brain, which is being touted as nothing more than a big computer, genes
are the building blocks for every synapse and dendron connecting together into the
most complex thing on the planet, yet we are like 99.8 percent the same creature
genetically as mice, one webpage states that its hard to tell the two genomes apart,
humand and mouse. so really the difference between human and mouse is a small
number of genes, but somehow a large enough number to shape every part of our
bodies. It all seems very out there to me, like there has to be more explanation for what
we are than just genes, i believe the way we live shapes us, our mind shapes us and we
in turn shape our mind through thinking and i also believe in a spirit, think about it, yu
can live an entire life inside your head, the material world and our bodies are not in use
for people living in comas are they? yet they are still alive in their minds?

All im trying to say is we are far too complex for evolution theory on its own and far too
different from each other and other creatures that what we are is determined by .1 of
our genes and thats all that makes us different from each other and mice. I think
they;re onto something with these ideas but they think they have the entire explanation
and dont, at all. sorry scientists.

I just posted this to raise doubt for those of you guys so set in your ways about genes
and evolution and to open your minds to a new way of thinking that is just as plausible
as these scientific theories.

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oscar the grunge
Seasoned


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me a "wookie wannabe"


http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256C700055615D

[quote]
[b]Ultraviolet Light Linked to Androgenic Alopecia[/b]

They found that the scalp dermis was significantly thicker in the men with androgenic alopecia than in the subjects without alopecia. This difference was due to a more severe elastosis in baldness. The researchers found that the earliest signs of elastosis due to sun exposure preceded hair thinning. A negative exponential correlation was found between hair diameter and severity of solar elastosis (when elastosis was thicker than 0.2 mm).
[/quote]

If a person lives long enough, various degrees of hairloss are inevitable. Environment appears to be a large factor in the MPB equation. If hair was merely "genetically programmed" to fall out, then why is there elastosis and inflammation associated with MPB?

If different follicles exist on the top of a scalp, some with androgen receptors and others without androgen receptors then why does the entire "top of scalp" eventually go completely bald?

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oscar the grunge
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.morphollica.com/research/male_androgenetic_alopecia.pdf

[quote]
Hair follicle sensitivity is genetically determined and shows regional specificity. Androgen stimulation of scalp dermal papilla cells induces transforming growth factor beta (TGF-B) and results in cyclical miniaturization of the entire hair follicle.

[...]

In contrast androgen stimulation of beard dermal
papilla cells produces insulin growth factor -2 (IGF-2) and results in cyclical enlargement of the entire hair follicle.

[...]

...occipital hairs maintain their resistance to androgenetic alopecia when transplanted to the vertex, and scalp hairs from the vertex transplanted to the forearm miniaturise at the same pace as hairs neighbouring the donor site...

[/quote]

My worst fears are confirmed. The balding process appears to be a relic of primate evolution.


[size=small]

[Edit by oscar the grunge on Thursday, February 9, 2006 @ 14:09][/size]

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oscar the grunge
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031204074038.htm

[quote]
The researchers studied normal cells lines whose growth was inhibited by TGF-b -- the process was working properly -- as well as cell lines whose growth was stimulated by TGF-b.

TGF-b uses multiple signaling pathways to get its instructions to the cell's nucleus -- at least four pathways that are known, and there are probably more, Bhowmick said.

In the inhibited cells, the researchers removed particular protein components in one of these known TGF-b signaling pathways called Rho-ROCK. The cells were no longer inhibited and instead began growing again.

[/quote]

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oscar the grunge
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally posted by oscar the grunge
If different follicles exist on the top of a scalp, some with androgen receptors and others without androgen receptors then why does the entire "top of scalp" eventually go completely bald?

According to conversations at the different hairloss forums, [b]all scalp hair follicles[/b] have androgen receptors. But only certain follicles become activated...

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oscar the grunge
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, the hair follicles become more sensitive to DHT with age, even though the levels of androgens in a given person are actually decreasing, after age 25 or so.

If the balding process is a relic of primate evolution, then EVERYONE has inherited the MPB genes. Some people are lucky enough to inherit other genes though, that appear to interfere and block the MPB process.

Environmental changes can increase, or decrease the rates of balding in a given population. For example, dietary saturated fat & trans-fat intake along with other factors like SLS? from shampoo and soap appear to let the MPB gene be fully activated in places like Japan and other previously non-western cultures.

Just making a wild guess about genetics and MPB :p

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educobian
Moving On Up


Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe in evolution (and I don't have any religious believes).

I used to believe in evolution until I read (molecular biology of the gen) written by one of the guys that discovered dna's 3d structure. I realised that something as complex can't come from pure chance. A cell needs 200 moleculas just to split the dna in order to duplicate it. So until those 200 moleculas were there how on earth could dna duplicate?

I believe in degeneration. We are losing "functionality" through mutations. Good genes become useless and not better.

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oscar the grunge
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2768

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points made by "your nemesis" at the HR forums:

http://www.hairloss-reversible.com/discus/

[quote]
-------------------------------------------------
quote:
Apparently, the hair follicles become more sensitive to DHT with age, even though the levels of androgens in a given person are actually decreasing, after age 25 or so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no basis for this assumption. Sensitivity to DHT would have to increase dramatically with age (see graph) ... I'm not aware of a single study which has shown this to be the case. Instead, net androgen phenotypical effect has been shown to be a function of androgen receptor (AR) polymorphism (see Canale et al 2005). In particular, CAG-repeat length in AR affects androgen mediated gene expression in hair follicles (Sawaya et al 1998). CAG-repeat length varies from one individual to the next but is not a function of age.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
If the balding process is a relic of primate evolution, then EVERYONE has inherited the MPB genes. Some people are lucky enough to inherit other genes though, that appear to interfere and block the MPB process.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, primates such as the stump-tailed macaque provide a very poor model for human baldness. In fact, baldness in stump-tailed macaques corresponds exactly to the scenario suggested by Anonymous. ALL stump-tailed macaques (both male and female) go bald within a short time after the onset of puberty (when androgens are at their highest). Also, all macaques respond exceedingly well to antiandrogens. The etiology of baldness in humans is substantially different and vastly more complex.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
Environmental changes can increase, or decrease the rates of balding in a given population. For example, dietary saturated fat & trans-fat intake along with other factors like SLS? from shampoo and soap appear to let the MPB gene be fully activated in places like Japan and other previously non-western cultures.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no "mpb gene". MPB is multigenic, which means that individual susceptibilities to different factors can vary strongly. This multigenicity will determine the appropriateness of different therapeutic options. For instance, propecia can be a godsend for some (at least in the short run); for others it can accelerate the balding process by leading to a downregulation of igf-1 etc.

[/quote]

[size=small]

[Edit by oscar the grunge on Sunday, February 12, 2006 @ 14:47][/size]

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guitarius
On A Mission


Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it genes tho? The idea that genetics control EVERYTHING is a friggin theory, and
not even a theory that has been pretty much proven and is accepted as a fact. I
personally don't buy into it, i think its nurture over nature in the case of baldness, as
you stated urself, ALL macaques go bald, it is a secondary sex characteristic for them,
for humans it is an unsightly mess that attacks at random and at any age. It IS NOT
INHERITED, as we have proven on here with families that are not bald. It IS NOT A
PATTERn necessarily which destroys the credibility of the entire MPB theory, they're
wrong about one thing, why not be wrong about everything? Plus they didnt find an MPB
gene, propecia barely works seeing as it works in some and then even in them, it
doesnt work well. I mean come on, now they're coming out with new shit that it's a
bunch of factors (HELLO FINALLY YOU ADMIT IT) but they're claiming they KNOW the
factors. Its all very shady, either they KNOW exactly wat it is and are holding it back for
money purposes or they have no friggin idea and are trying to maintain their own
credibility which has been completely lost in my eyes already..... i just think that people
who follow the evangelists of baldness (ain ain get it? they preach the false knowlege of
baldness and steal our money in the process! genius) from one disproven theory to the
next are stupid stupid people.
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Cristove
On A Mission


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guitarius, what happend at your doctor's appointment? Or have I missed that post along the line?
_________________
So, what do I look like? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell me. Let's see, two legs, two arms, two hands, slight weakness in the dorsal tubercle... hair! I'm not bald! Ooh... big hair. The Doctor, Doctor Who: Children in Need
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guitarius
On A Mission


Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well cristove, my doc thinks im hyperthyroid, which would account for every single
thing that ails me in my body and she ran blood tests and and ultrasound to find out if
thats the case, it also runs in my family, (more than baldness!) so i have my next
appointment in a couple weeks and i guess ill only know then, but if its something
serious like thyroid cancer then obviously they;d call earlier! But yeah, oh and I saw
some pics of myself, high flash pics in a dark bar and the top of my hair is like two to
three inches so its not like see through in bright light but the sides and the back look
really thin cause they're alot shorter, like REALLY thin, THE SIDES AND BACK, a pic of
the back of my head shows that my hairs uniformly thin all over and there is no
thinning patch in my crown. Like it can't be MPB that I have, the area where the hair
DOESNT THIN in MPB is just as thin as any other area, in fact it almost looks like i just
naturally have really thin hair in those pictures but my hair used to be very thick, like
thick enough that when it was long when i was younger they had to layer it to make it
look decent. So im just prayin that the thyroid thing comes back positive because with
treatment thyroid hair problems are usually reversed, if I could get it ten percent thicker
even id be satisfied, but imagine it grew all the way back! i wouldnt know wat to do with
my life! id be in absolute friggin ecstacy every single day!
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Cristove
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Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...not sure whether to wish you luck or not. But I hope you find an answer.
_________________
So, what do I look like? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell me. Let's see, two legs, two arms, two hands, slight weakness in the dorsal tubercle... hair! I'm not bald! Ooh... big hair. The Doctor, Doctor Who: Children in Need
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